There is work being done on equating inertial rest mass with the Zero Point Energy, as described in this paper by Haisch and Rueda: http://xxx.lanl.gov/abs/gr-qc/9906084

The telling line is:

quote:

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...what we regard as the (inertial) mass of the particle is, according to deBroglie's proposal, simply the vibrational energy (divided by c^2), of a localized oscilating field (most likely electromagnetic field)...(Hunter)

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The relationship between mass and energy is well known, so yes, an increase in a particle's _total_ energy is the equivalent of an increase in mass (I mean total by rest and kinetic).

I don't think those guys are saying anything new really, just trying to explain the concept of inertia in different terms. The main thing they were explaining was that a force is generated in an accelerating object by Compton's effect (exchange of energy between say, photons and electrons) that translates directly to what we know as "inertia".

This energy increase has to come from somewhere however, be it the photons or some other wave/particle. I don't know if the slowing down could be the result of light pressure differential (the difference between photons from the sun pushing the craft outward vs photons from nearby stars in the flight path pushing back) or simply a miscalculation of the solar system's total mass, but it is definitely puzzling. This is the first time we've been able to track an obect of known mass to such a distance.

Daniel

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quote:

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Originally posted by dciobota
The relationship between mass and energy is well known, so yes, an increase in a particle's _total_ energy is the equivalent of an increase in mass (I mean total by rest and kinetic).

Daniel

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Thanks Daniel,

It seems there is some relationship between a particle's total energy and kinetic energy, hence velocity. The puzzle is that the distant space probes appear to be slowing, which would imply their total energy (cum inertia) is being somehow 'diluted' with distance. I don't know of any concept in current physics that could account for this, however, so found the Haisch-Rueda paper interesting. Thinking out loud, it would almost seem as if the probes (made up of a great many particles) are somehow 'surrendering' their energy to space, or perhaps the 'space-vacuum', in such a way that momentum is being affected, hence lower velocity. But it is not yet certain this is true, to my understanding. Other influences, such as unknown planets or gravitational effects, have been ruled out. As you say, this is the first time we have a way to measure a known mass traveling out of the solar system, so bears watching. I would love to see a similar gadget attached to one of our large elliptical orbit comets, to see if a similar effect takes place. If this proved true also for comets (which we do not believe it would), we'd have to go back to our physics fundamentals and rethink what is happening, I would think.


(I'll be away for the next week, in Santa Fe, NM, to play in the snow and visiting friends, so may not respond immediately.)

__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

You can come up to Nebraska and get all the snow you want, in fact, we'll give it away for free! :-)

Yep, this is definitely a must watch item, funny thing how no one has yet mentioned either ruling out or looking into photons star light as the culprits. From the old NASA dreams of building a "photon-sail" I would've thought this would be one of the items on the check list. Weird.

Have fun in Santa Fe,

Daniel

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Hi Daniel,

Back from Santa Fe, Los Alamos, where there was snow! While in Los Alamos, I met up with an old friend of mine, a medical doctor, whose practice involves scientists at the Lab. There is a fringe group who look into 'alternative' ideas on how works the universe, as well as those who are working on our return to the Moon. Both groups are called 'lunatics'! Did not meet any on this very brief trip, but may do so on a return visit.

quote:

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From the old NASA dreams of building a "photon-sail" I would've thought this would be one of the items on the check list. Weird.

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I hope I didn't jinx your trip by mentioning the s--- word. ;-)

If the ZPF theory holds, then we may be doomed to never break out of our solar system... hmmm, good fodder for the alien conspiracy theorists. However, my remark was about the lack of a published mention to try to measure or explain the effect of net photon force on the craft. That is a known effect (used so far unsuccessfully in fusion experiments), weird that there's no mention of it.

Daniel

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Another Theory on why the pioneer vehicles are slowing down. If nothing else, it has a large list of references to alternate theories for anyone wanting to investigate further.

http://www.newtonphysics.on.ca/Anomalous/Acceleration.html

That paper certainly seems to make sense, metalsailer, but the rest of the site is quite strange. Some of the things he proposes seem far too simplistic. From some of what is written, it's hard to believe this guy has a PhD and numerous published papers.

I reserve judgement because of the strange 'flavour' of the site.

I find it very difficult to believe that NASA scientists haven't considered the effects of low-density dust/gas on Pioneer etc.
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Shambolic - keeping it complex analytic

This quote from the paper by Paul Marmet, referenced above, is the nut of it all:

"Finally, we see now in this paper, that we can measure the drag produced by that dust on the spacecraft Pioneer 10 and 11. This gives a solution to the problem of the anomalous acceleration of Pioneer 10 and 11 toward the Sun, without the exceedingly improbable hypothesis of new physics(2-7)."

If Nasa had not taken this into consideration, then it would represent a major oversight. I too find this difficult to believe, especially given that the whole parabolic antenna would have to be like a large sail facing into the space dust. I suspect it's facing towards us instead. Also, does the craft exhibit any increase in spin? I would expect that to be the case if some regional greater gravity effect was taking place, though I suspect Nasa keeps adjusting the spacecrafts' spin with onboard jets to keep the antenna pointing towards Earth, so may not tally the cumulative effect of such adjustments to spin.

I am not totally satisfied with Marmet's explanation of the dragging acceleration of Pioneer 10 & 11. However, I am intrigued by the idea that these distant spacecrafts will become dust laden to the point of, like a grain of sand in an oyster, become the seeds of future Tahiti pearl comets... manmade!

__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

If NASA forgot about the drag, it would have been a major oversight. He posts a pretty thorough list of things they presumably already checked though (and darn, they _did_ check photon effects) so he presents at least a credible explanation, if that were true.

Now, the rest of his site is another story. ;-)

Daniel

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