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drbobjones


Registered: Mar 04
Posts: 23

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
quote:
...
The point I was trying to make, and it seems unsuccessfully, is that for the observation to be equal in all directions, we cannot be anywhere except the center of the Big Bang. If the Big Bang borne Universe is in fact an expanding entity, even in 4D, then indeed anyone who is at the 13
...
Tell me if this is too deep for you.


The big bang did occur everywhere. It is meaningless to say that it occurred exclusively "over there" or "here". It happened everywhere. Everyone in the universe is where the big bang occurred. (Counter intuitive, I think so.)

Space is being added between the galaxies and this give the "illusion" that we are receding from each other. (Kind of makes it less deep, for me anyway.)

I thought that Hubble (mid 1920s) discovered that galaxies were receding from us and the farther out the faster they appeared to be moving (away from us).

People logically said that is was obvious that sometime in the past, the galaxies were closer together. They then speculated what happened when all matter was concentrated in a very small volume far enough in our past.

Thus, it was simple observation and deduction that gave birth to the idea of the big bang. It was not a high-level math problem, at least not yet.

Disclaimer: I just said what?

04/04/04 01:53
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Coppernicus2


Registered: Jun 03
Posts: 158

quote:
The big bang did occur everywhere. It is meaningless to say that it occurred exclusively "over there" or "here". It happened everywhere. Everyone in the universe is where the big bang occurred. (Counter intuitive, I think so.)
I hear ya, and I know this is the standard understanding, that it happened everywhere simultaneously, here, there, everywhere. So this is why I have such a hard time with it. Maybe I can illustrate my conundrum differently yet again:

If I can look 13 billion light years in one direction, and what I am seeing is light originating 13 billion years ago, what am I seeing when looking 13 billion light years in the other direction? If 13+ billion years ago is approximately the beginning of the universe, then looking in either direction, which is the true beginning of the universe? Is it towards the northern hemisphere's Cygnus X-I, for example, or is it towards its southern hemisphere's Circinus X-I opposite instead? Both are hot quasars, and I'm only using them as directional markers. Can there be two original points of the Big Bang, both 13 billion years away from us, in opposite directions? That already puts both 'beginnings' about 26+ billion light years apart, not to mention you have to double that, since the Big Bang didn't just happen in one direction, but in ALL directions. So now the universe is what, 52+ billion light years across? Is this a rational conjecture? And lo and behold, we again happen to be exactly smack dab in the dead middle between them. How can that be? How can anybody sleep at night with such a question unanswered? It totally floors me that we can blithely say "it happened everywhere at once".... that to me is truly an anthropomorphic notion, that it happened everywhere at once, and somehow we're in the middle... a kind of neo-Creationism?

!!!!!*@#*$%!

__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

04/04/04 04:01
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drbobjones


Registered: Mar 04
Posts: 23

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
If I can look 13 billion light years in one direction, and what I am seeing is light originating 13 billion years ago, what am I seeing when looking 13 billion light years in the other direction? If 13+ billion years ago is approximately the beginning of the universe, then looking in either direction, which is the true beginning of the universe? Is it towards the northern hemisphere's Cygnus X-I, for
...
can blithely say "it happened everywhere at once".... that to me is truly an anthropomorphic notion, that it happened everywhere at once, and somehow we're in the middle... a kind of neo-Creationism?

!!!!!*@#*$%!


I think this is what you are thinking:

Our universe has finite volume, with no boundaries, and a (more-or-less) constant negative curvature. We can also see, in principle, all of the galaxies in the universe because light has had enough time to reach us here at Earth.

Light that is just arriving in the form of 3K background radiation from opposite directions are meeting (at Earth) for the first time since the big bang (13B+ years ago). From the spatial location of those rays' origins, rays also went out in the other directions (including the opposite direction). They are now just reaching our counter-parts on two other worlds. I'll try ascii art:

X<<<<<<A>>>>>>E<<<<<<B>>>>>>Y

We are at E (for Earth). We think that the 3K radiation originated from A and B. It had been travelling for 13B years so we think that A and B are 26 Billion light years apart. Our counterparts, at X and Y would then seem to be 52B light years apart, right now (13B years after the big bang). But the "radius" of the universe is only 13B light years (or so). How can this be?

Also, if people at Y (and X) where to now look out into the universe, they could draw analogous pictures with them at the center, and so on.

(hi mom)
...>>E<<<<<<B>>>>>>Y<<<<<<C>>>>>>Z<<<...

How can this be? It is quite counter-intuitive.

Can my little diagram really go on forever?

Add to this the fact that there are a finite number of galaxies in a finite "volume" and everyone can see each other. (It makes my brain go round and round. What did they teach me in college ... all those years for this? :-)

Think about it.

Disclaimer: I just said what?

04/04/04 05:18
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Coppernicus2


Registered: Jun 03
Posts: 158

quote:
Add to this the fact that there are a finite number of galaxies in a finite "volume" and everyone can see each other. (It makes my brain go round and round. What did they teach me in college ... all those years for this? :-)
My problem exactly! Now you know why I have this 'Big Bang' itch that just won't go away. So I'll have to settle for another fantasy, that we simply just don't know... and with that, I will now fry up some garlic with Roma tomatoes, make a pasta sauce, which is my one culinary skill, and think some more of why gravity has to be a constant in a universe where maybe it is not. Cheers!

__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

04/04/04 05:31
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Shambolic


Registered: Nov 03
Posts: 369

Cop2, try this one...
Take a piece of string, hold one end, and feed the other end out 20,000 km in one direction. Now, take a second piece of string, and feed it out 20,000 km in the exact opposite direction. How far apart are the ends of the two pieces of string?

They're touching!! You just discovered you live on a sphere, not a plane. 20,000 + 20,000 = 0.

The difficulty comes from trying to extend that idea to an extra dimension. Playing around in the universe, you have to realise you're in 4-dimensional non-Euclidean space.
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Shambolic - keeping it complex analytic

04/04/04 14:58
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Coppernicus2


Registered: Jun 03
Posts: 158

quote:
Originally posted by Shambolic
Cop2, try this one...
Take a piece of string, hold one end, and feed the other end out 20,000 km in one direction. Now, take a second piece of string, and feed it out 20,000 km in the exact opposite direction. How far apart are the ends of the two pieces of string?

They're touching!! You just discovered you live on a sphere, not a plane. 20,000 + 20,000 = 0.

The difficulty comes from trying to extend that idea to an extra dimension. Playing around in the universe, you have to realize you're in 4-dimensional non-Euclidean space.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the universe is an ever expanding 4-D 'string' to which there is no beginning and no end? Is it a kind of Mobius strip universe? If so, then spatially, space does not exist, and distance is merely an illusion. Gravity becomes a distortion of this space-time, and the laws of physics are merely the result of this 4-D expansion in a universe with no beginning and no end.

But this theory does not remove the problem we have with always appearing to be at the center of it all, whether measured in terms of Doppler shifts or microwave background 3K, since they are all equal in every direction away from us. It also does not explain how a 'beginning' of 13 billion years ago can be visible in ALL directions simultaneously. One way to explain this is to say that the universe did not explode in a Big Bang, but imploded instead, so that the periphery 13 billion light years away in all directions is the beginning center, which would be the same for any observer anywhere in the universe... but that becomes even more unreasonable. How can we all, no matter what galaxy we're on, see the beginning of the universe as a 13 billion light years away sphere? Wouldn't some of us somewhere see the 13 billion year mark as empty in one direction while galaxy filled in the other? We can't all be at the center... unless each observer from inside the universe can ONLY be within the 13 billion light year sphere, and no observer can be ouside that bubble. If so, then ALL observers will always see the 'beginning' 13 billion light years away. That still leaves us with the problem of observational uniformity, since we see the same Doppler shift in all directions, even if the laws of addition of velocities should give us greater shifts in some direction versus the opposite direction...

In effect, how big is this universe? If an observer is at the periphery, and he too can see 13 billion light years away, then of necessity the universe is already at least 52 billion light years across. Or is it all an illusion of space-time, and we have no idea what distances we are looking at? If so, then reason fails and counter-intuitiveness wins.

In the Russian language there is a term for stories told to little children, "kazka", which roughly translates into "fairy tale". In my opinion of one, some of physics has become like that, a kind of Kazka Physics, and I suspect the Big Bang will eventually be told to amuse little children in the same way. For now, however, it's really all we got, so I'll have to get over it and tow the line.

__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

04/04/04 18:42
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JoeC


Registered: Jul 03
Posts: 54

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
If an observer is at the periphery...

If the Big Bang theory is correct, there is no "periphery".

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
But this theory does not remove the problem we have with always appearing to be at the center of it all

The Big Bang theory does in fact specifically "remove the problem". I believe that the observation that we appear to be at the center of the universe is pretty strong evidence that something interesting, like the Big Bang, is going on.

See pictures of how the Big Bang explains why every point appears to be the center when you are observing the universe from that point: Where was the center of the Big Bang?

I believe you're thinking of the Big Bang as a regular ole explosion, as shown in the first picture. But that is not correct.

04/04/04 20:15
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BENFOW


Registered: Aug 02
Posts: 474

DRBOBJONES: The saddle curve is a combo of a positive and a negatively curved plane. The surface of the 4d sphere is positvly curved but the acceleration of the expansion of the 4d sphere in time provides the negative curve, putting them together you get the saddle.

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04/05/04 03:04
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Coppernicus2


Registered: Jun 03
Posts: 158
Gravity vs. Big Bang Theory?

quote:
JoeC wrote:The Big Bang theory does in fact specifically "remove the problem". I believe that the observation that we appear to be at the center of the universe is pretty strong evidence that something interesting, like the Big Bang, is going on.

Excellent point! Thank you! And very good reference, especially the link to "Homogeneity and Isotropy" http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmo_02.htm, which shows distance D in terms of 'now' as opposed to its 'redshifted' v=HD adjusted value for D. Remember that lightspeed is a special case, v=c, which is invariable and the only true measure of events in space-time. Thus, to keep it simple, all observations within the 'bubble' of an event going back to the universe's beginning, say approximately 13 billion years, is visible for every observer to be identical, which is 13 billion light years in every direction. All observers will have this same perspective from where they are, giving us the illusion of being at the center of the event, with distance then adjusted for the Hubble Constant. This I believe is an observational fact, which is as good here on Earth as it would be in a galaxy 3 billion light years away, though we would see different patterns of stars. The question that remains with me, and which I cannot shake off easily, is why do we need a Big Bang to validate this observational fact? Would it not stand on its own even without an original date of the universe's creation? Let me illustrate:

If I were a pre-Cambrian protozoan say, 3 billion years ago, and with my supersmart fellow protozoa we built a space telescope and launched it to observe distant stars and galaxies: What would we see? If the universe is let's say only 13 billion years old, would our field of view only take us out to about 10 billion light years, since before that there would be nothingness? Is this true? Or would our super precocious protozoa be surprised to find that they could see beyond the 10 billion light years, and see out to about where the light fuzzes out, say 13 billion light years, with stars and galaxies there? I realize this is a mental exercise, but I use it to illustrate the possibility that regardless of Big Bang or not, the view out to 13 billion light years would still be the same, true whether seen today, or 3 billion years ago, or 13 billion years ago. In effect, we created a Big Bang origin to the universe to explain our other physics in terms of General Relativity, and then measured everything accordingly by that template of understanding using space-time diagrams and equations, further accommodated by Doppler redshift of distant cosmic light. Now, what if... and this is truly the crux of the matter... what if distant cosmic lightshift is NOT due to Doppler motion, and what if there was NO Big Bang, would our observational results change? No, they would not, and we would still see exactly the same thing. What would change, instead, would be our understanding as to why light appears to redshift over great cosmic distances in a very predictable and measurable way. That, I think, is the real issue.

The reason I have difficulty buying into the Big Bang, in my opinion of one, is that I think Hubble's discovery of distant light redshift that sort of launched this whole thing, supported by Einstein's merging General Relativity with Doppler redshift, spawned an idea that is truly unnecessary to understand what we are seeing. Take cosmic light redshift as a given fact, one that cannot be explained away so easily as to say the universe is expanding, and accept it as a function of what light does over great distances (not the tired light theory either), and find the reason why light acts this way, and you will be on your way to understanding the universe's physics without having to create a Big Bang. We should stay true to what we observe and not see it through the prism of a theory that is both ignorant of what is gravity, other than in some geometrical space-time distortion sort of way, and not give our observations the bias this ignorance is forcing us to accept. If we have a better understanding of what gravity does to light over great cosmic distances (remember 'dark matter'?), we will have a better handle on what it is we are seeing, and why it looks redshifted to us. Mind you, this is only an opinion of one, and I expect no support for it, nor can I do it greater justice for now.

So if the universe is not expanding, what have we got? When we look towards the nearest star Alpha Centauri, will it be there a hundred years from now, or a thousand years from now, on its normal course and not moved because of space expansion? I suspect it will not have deviated by one inch. Our records go back how many centuries of telescopic observations? Have we actually measured position changes for galaxies in that time? And why is it that this space expansion does not apply to the stars within galaxies? If the quasi-explosion (which as you pointed out is a bad description) of the Big Bang shows that for all observers, regardless of where they are in the universe, the universe will look the same.. do we really need it? Is this not a superfluous theory that confuses more than it solves? Instead of Big Bang, I propose we get a real handle on Gravity, for that is where the Real Physic of our universe lie.

So in the end, we will not need to bring physics back to some Big Bang singularity, that point of nowhere and nothingness which truly begs credibility, in order to find a unifying theory of energy and gravity. I suggest that when we have a better understanding of how these two major universal forces interact, we will have discovered that our observations of the universe will not need to factor in a Big Bang. What we will then see is what it is, and cosmic light redshift will be understood as a function of gravity in space. When we finally succeed in doing that, then we can move away from the counter-intuitiveness of modern physics into a more real physics instead. Is the universal expansion accelerating or slowing down, or is exactly flat? None of the above...

Well, Gentlemen and Ladies, I think I have exhausted all I can offer for now, such as it is, only an opinion of one. To go from philosophy, which is what this is, to science will require a stronger frame of intellectual reference than I can offer here.

Thanks you all for your attention and time.

Coppernicus2
__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

04/05/04 03:40
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drbobjones


Registered: Mar 04
Posts: 23
Re: Gravity vs. Big Bang Theory?

I get to teach a course in Modern Physics this summer and I find that this dialog is bringing back many good memories.

There are some things I am rusty on and this discussion has inspired me to re-read some of Misner/Thorne/Wheeler's Gravitation book, especially the cosmology section. Other great books that influenced me were Weinberg's "The First Three Minutes" and his "Gravitation and Cosmology" books. I haven't read Hawking's "A Brief History of Time", but I have it right in front of me.

In 1986, Kip Thorne signed my MTW book:
With best wishes for your study & research in physics - but don't believe everything you read here.

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
...
So if the universe is not expanding, what have we got? When we look towards the nearest star Alpha Centauri, will it be there a hundred years from now, or a thousand years from now, on its normal course and not moved because of space expansion? I suspect it will not have deviated by one inch. Our records go back how many centuries of telescopic observations? Have we actually measured position changes for galaxies in that time? And why is it that this space expansion does not apply to the stars within galaxies?
Coppernicus2
...

The classic analogy in MTW uses a balloon that is being blown up. It has pennies glued to it. The pennies represent galaxy clusters. The pennies don't change size, but the distance between them does increase.

They point out that this is a common misconception that many beginning students have. If everything is expanding at the same rate, even distance between my atoms, or between the ends of my meterstick, then how do we know the universe is expanding?

The expansion of the universe applies to neither the space between the ends of my meterstick, nor between Sun and Alpha Centauri, nor between Milky Way and our neighboring galaxies. [In fact, I heard that a galaxy is headed right for us.]

I think the expansion does not apply within clusters of galaxies because local gravitational effects mask the Hubble expansion phenomena.

I thought that motion of local stars is deduced from redshift, not from apparent changes in the sky. I do understand that over hundreds of years, they do observe such changes in position, but only if it is perpendicular to our line of view. I also thought that for very nearby stars, there is an observable parallax, viewed 6 months apart, but I am not sure.

About the redshift: I am aware of several ways to get a redshift. I think the first three can be called experimental facts, but the fourth relies on observation and deduction (big bang theory). Call the emitter E and a detector D. Here they are:

1] E on a body moving (any speed, even 56MPH) away from D.
2] E on a massive body, D far away. Due to gravitational redshift. No relative motion needed.
3] E on a body moving very fast relative to D, caused by time dilation and relative motion.
4] E and D widely separated in the universe, apparently moving apart because of Hubble expansion, but each at rest wrt their local galaxy cluster.

Any others? "Tired light" doesn't count.

Disclaimer: I just said what?

04/05/04 07:25
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