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wintermute11


Registered: Mar 03
Posts: 485

I try not to attempt to help Radrook understand basic physics anymore. My only concern is that somebody is reading Radrooks comments, not knowing the source, and accepting them as fact.

JoeC, you'll also find that some people will fight you tooth and nail on one thread, and then basically quote you in another thread as if it came from them. No matter what you say, some will blatantly deny it and refuse to even open a basic physics text book. Then, they will magically accept everything you previously said and attempt to regurgitate it in another thread. Usually incorrectly.

JoeC, you'll also find that you and I are a rarety here.

08/22/03 19:42
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JoeC


Registered: Jul 03
Posts: 54

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
In the above, I think my reasoning is rather straightforward. Could you give me a short answer as to why you think my reasoning is incorrect?

Yes, I think so.

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
After all, why should I believe you?

You shouldn't. You should go off and learn as much as you can about Special Relativity. Then you wouldn't have to take what others say on faith.

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
If "Your velocity (or mass) truly is relative", then I must ask: is relative to what?

Good question. Your velocity is always relative to something else. That something else is whatever you pick. In everyday life, you compute your velocity relative to the earth.

Again, I think you're looking for a way to figure out what your "real" velocity is (with respect to the universe?). This concept does not exist in Special Relativity. There is no "universal reference frame" by which you can determine your velocity. This is the hump you and Radrook need to get over.


quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
You say: "It's (Relativity) is very, very useful."

Useful to whom? Other Relativists? Why is it totally ignored in the engineering of the space program?


It's ignored in the space program because Newtonian physics works just fine for the velocities of say, a shuttle launch or a probe on it's way to Mars.

If our spacecraft were traveling at some reasonable percentage of c, they would need relativity.


quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
Could it be a fantastic tale believed only by its true believers?

No. Many tenets of Relativity have been experimentally verified, time and again.

quote:
Originally posted by Coppernicus2
We are already traveling at near light speed in relation to some part of the universe, and yet our time is not dilating, nor is our mass increasing. So... how useful is that?

Here are the questions you need to ask (Radrook, pay attention again):

Are we traveling at near light speed in relation to some part of the universe...or is some part of the universe traveling at near light speed in relation to us? Which one is moving? Which one "gains mass"? Which one experiences slower moving time? How can you ever tell?

Think about that for a little while.

As for how useful relativity is: Physicists need to use relativity when working with particle accelerators, to account for the increased mass of the particles they are slamming together at high speed. GPS satellites need to account for tenets of relativity since their clocks tick slower than clocks on earth. These are two examples of relativity coming into play in real life.

08/22/03 20:16
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JoeC


Registered: Jul 03
Posts: 54

I don't think this was directed at me, but what the heck...

quote:
Originally posted by Radrook
Again, if you are so learned, why were you claiming that mass increase at near light speeds is only relative to the viewer?


Someone would claim this because it is absolutely true. The "mass increase" is relative to the viewer. If you have two viewers moving at different speeds relative to a third object, the two observers will disagree in their measurements of the mass of the third object. That is an absolute fact, according to Special Relativity.


quote:
Originally posted by Radrook
When Andy brought out that mass increase was real as I had been saying all along, there was only silence from the general area of your vast intellect.


The "mass increase" is real. Again, using the example above with the two observers, if the third object collides with a fourth object, it will behave as if it had the mass that each observer measured it as.

How can this be when they each measured the mass to be different?

Because the two observers will also disagree on the measured mass of the (fourth) object that the third object collides with.

Now here comes the exquisite beauty of Relativity.

Even though the two observers cannot agree on the mass of either object in the collision, the results of the collision will be accurately modeled by both of them. They will agree with each other that the collision behaved exactly as they each expected, but disagree on the masses of each object.

That is Relativity.

You're having a hard time understanding that the "mass increase" is both "real" and relative to the observer. The concept that both of these things are true is not intuitive to we humans...but it is the way the universe works.


quote:
Originally posted by Radrook
My comments are not "fighting" as you perceive them. My comments are merely expressions of how I view things. If you view comments which you disagree with as "fighting"


It's not a question of agreeing or disagreeing. Special Relativity is a known and well understood (by some) science. When you make a statement regarding relativity, it's either right or wrong. Most of your statements on the subject have been wrong. When someone corrects you with real science you argue with them as if it's a battle of opinions. But it's not. You're stating your "view of things" and the other person is stating cold hard science, complete with experimental evidence to back it up.

Speaking for myself, when I have "disagreed" with you in this thread, it's not because we have a difference of opinion. It's because what you are saying is a direct violation of relativity. If you'd like to think of relativity as an "opinion", then it is the opinion of Albert Einstein that you disagree with, not mine.

08/22/03 22:09
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JoeC


Registered: Jul 03
Posts: 54

quote:
Originally posted by wintermute11
I try not to attempt to help Radrook understand basic physics anymore. My only concern is that somebody is reading Radrooks comments, not knowing the source, and accepting them as fact.

This is what bothers me too. By posting what he does, Radrook can only make more Radrooks.

I'll eventually give up also, it's just that while I have the patience, I find that me trying to explain what I know to someone else helps me solidify it in my mind. That's also why I desperately want to be corrected if I say something wrong. I'm not an expert on this...it's just that I know somewhat more than others around here.


quote:
Originally posted by wintermute11

JoeC, you'll also find that some people will fight you tooth and nail on one thread, and then basically quote you in another thread as if it came from them.


Yep, I saw something like this when I corrected...someone...in another thread (apparently the correction didn't stick...). In fact that...someone...actually went back and edited his posts in that other thread, removing the clueless material.


quote:
Originally posted by wintermute11

JoeC, you'll also find that you and I are a rarety here.


That's unfortunate. It would be really cool if people who were clueless asked real questions that I couldn't answer. Then, either someone who knows more than me could explain it and I could learn, or I could go off and try to find the answer myself. Either way, I'm smarter because of it.

I ain't gettin' any smarter in this thread.

08/22/03 22:26
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JoeC


Registered: Jul 03
Posts: 54

quote:
Originally posted by Radrook
In fact, you are wasting your time in going into details that I have been familiar with for more than 35 years.


Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that photons have mass. But you said that. You even trotted out what you thought was evidence to try and support this.

Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that massless particles can travel slower than c. But you said that.

Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that objects traveling at relativistic velocities could possibly experience negative effects due to increased mass. But you said that.

Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that relativistic velocities can simply be added to one another to achieve a useful result. But you said that.

Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that Coppernicus2 "makes plenty of sense" when he implies that an object can be at rest with respect to the universe. But you said that.

Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that Coppernicus2 "makes plenty of sense" when he questions the usefulness of relativity. But you said that.

Shall I go on?

And, even though I've asked a few times now, you have not supplied a quote where Wintermute claimed that a photon has a rest mass.

Relativity is complex. It is not intuitive. If it were simple and intuitive, it wouldn't have taken the human race nearly 300 years to move from Newton's laws to relativity.

What I don't understand is why you spend so much time here pretending to be knowledgeable. If you spent that time learning instead, you would actually be somewhat knowledgeable.

08/22/03 23:01
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wintermute11


Registered: Mar 03
Posts: 485

To those that are reading this thread, do not accept what any of us are saying here to be true. Find a physics text book and read for yourself. Don't rely solely on the internet either. You can see here what can happen.

I recommend Feynman's Six Easy Pieces and Feynman's Six Not So Easy Pieces for good lay person explanations. You can buy them from Amazon or your favorite book store. Also, I've found many of Feynman's lectures in MP3 format.

I do disagree with JoeC on one thing. I don't think Special Relativity is too terribly complicated to understand. I think quantum mechanics is, but thats another story. Special Relativity is counterintuitive, but if you continue studying relativity, you should understand the basic incorrect assumptions are intuition makes.

I could tell you that I have a PhD in Physics, and I might be lying. I could be a 14 year old girl, a high school janitor, or an engineer working on the space program. The point is don't accept anything you read here as the absolute truth. All that JoeC and I are asking is for you to pick up a physics text book and read for yourself. Neither of us are professing any special knowledge that you couldn't gain from a basic physics text book.

Radrook is correct about the speed of light in anything other than a vacuum. I brought that up in a previous post in this thread. The velocity that Radrook is referring to is the net velocity. This is what I said:

quote:
I know that some people will attempt to quote experiments where photons were stopped. These were captured, not stopped. Atoms can capture a photon. All the energy contained within the photon is transferred to an electron raising it to an excited state. Energy is conserved. This is an effect that we see all the time. The difference is that in these experiments, the electron does not fall back down to a lower state emitting a photon in the process. It remains in the excited state until a condition is met, in which it falls back down, emitting the photon. The energy lost by the electron is emitted as a photon (quantum) having the same energy that was lost by the electron. Energy is conserved.

Those more learned will note that light slows down in a medium other than a vacuum. As the index of refraction of the transmission medium increases, the velocity decreases. This is a net velocity, but the light still actually travels at 186,000 mps. Its just captured by many atoms along the way, delaying propogation.

After I wrote this, I realized I made a mistake. The explanation as to why the velocity through a medium is less, is not due to photon capture. This is a different phenomenon (emission and absorption spectra). A similar effect occurs, but the electron is not excited to a higher energy level.

A more detailed explanation involves electrodynamics and quantum mechanics. Its been a long time since I studied either, and I couldn't possibly explain it anymore. It sounds like JoeC might have some fresher knowledge. Otherwise, read up on electrodynamics and quantum mechanics.

08/22/03 23:50
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Coppernicus2


Registered: Jun 03
Posts: 158

Phew! I blinked and fell way behind in these posts! Here is my 2 cents:

JoeC,

RE "Are we traveling at near light speed in relation to some part of the universe... or is some part of the universe traveling at near light speed in relation to us? Which one is moving?..."

This is unresolved, but the hump (as you suggested we get over) rests squarely on Relativity's shoulders. The question doesn't go away. Why should we think because WE are here, the rest of the universe should care? BTW, the answer to the paradox above is that we NEVER are at velocity zero.

RE "As for how useful relativity is: Physicists need to use relativity when working with particle accelerators, to account for the increased mass of the particles they are slamming together at high speed. GPS satellites need to account for tenets of relativity since their clocks tick slower than clocks on earth. These are two examples of relativity coming into play in real life."

Okay, I dig that. But two things come into mind:

1. What have particle accelerators achieved of usefulness in real life, other than creating more reasons for research? Mind you, not critical of this research, but sense that given limitations on our energy parameters, we may be reaching a research dead end.

2. GPS clocks tick slower in orbit than on Earth... So? If my clocks at home run slow, do I conclude time is slowing down, or do I conclude the clocks are slow? Why not instead that there are as yet misunderstood reasons why atomic oscillations slow down while traveling through gravity fields, in the same way light redshifts in gravity fields? Is Relativity, though it does explain this, the ONLY answer? Not saying this is wrong, mind you, only that we have come to this conclusion via a circular type of reasoning, where our math predicts slowing atomic clocks (not mechanical clocks), so that in finding indeed they do slow down, we then assume that TIME is slowing down. Any critical mind would call "foul!", though physics seems to be okay with this and accepts it as fact.

RE "I think you're looking for a way to figure out what your "real" velocity is (with respect to the universe?). This concept does not exist in Special Relativity. There is no "universal reference frame" by which you can determine velocity."

Aha! This is a kinda "because" answer, which disappoints more than satisfies. Nevertheless, the question remains as a fundamental inquiry into the nature of universal relativity. Is a Terracentric reference, we on Earth, truly valid? For most physicists, the answer is "yes", without further questions. Again, because we do not have an answer for this, it does not preclude more questions. In effect, here we are asking the basic question of what is "rest mass", and what is "velocity"? This is not a chicken or egg question, rather it is asking what is the universe using as a reference frame, a very valid question. The answer to this determines whether the universe is already relativistic in how it is constructed, which means we are then recreating this needlessly; and if so, the "rest mass" may have no meaning. We invent terms and want to give them a reality which they may not have.

So, if the answer is that velocity is never zero, and rest mass doesn't exist, does this not throw the whole idea of SR/GR into doubt? Now you see why this is such a curiosity, why I am asking these questions. They are fundamental to our understanding of how the physics of the universe work.

Lastly, does science ever reach the point where such questions are not allowed? Of course not, since if it does, then science becomes religion, and once it is written open inquiry becomes forbidden, which is a contradiction. No need to put down anyone doubting and asking, for it is only natural. As thinkers and scientists, this is what we are supposed to do.

What does all this mean to me? Think about it: If rest mass is in doubt, and mass velocity is in doubt, and the physical application of a time dimension is in doubt (only atomic oscillations slow down, not time), what is Relativity left with? It may be that the universe is already Relativistically manifest into the reality we see, for which we are "hardwired" to understand three dimensionally. We do not need to re-invent another Relativity, since it already is at work. The result is a universe that is more Newtonian, though not perfectly, than it is Einsteinian. Einstein, Minkowski, and others, for all their brilliant ideas, may have sent us on a merry chase. There may be a much simpler explanation to how it all works. Possibility: Gravity is NOT a universal constant. Dark matter, light redshift, neutron stars spin, black holes, the atom, as products of how Energy and Gravity interact, all these fall into place. If so, this is worth pursuing. Why? Because it would release a whole new understanding how works the universe, and how to tap into the inexhaustible energy source that runs it intrinsically, gravity. Quantum electromagnetic energy, on which all our research is based, is perhaps only its modifier.

Truly appreciate all your thoughts on this, as always.

C2

Ps: In UR above: "Someone who is familiar with relativity would not say that Coppernicus2 "makes plenty of sense" when he implies that an object can be at rest with respect to the universe." My statement about velocity at zero was taken out of context and misunderstood, so false as stated by you. Do not wish to get into a "tit for tat" argument, but thought to correct obvious error. I hope more open minds are willing to read this, or arguments over "it is written" become too stinky of dogma.
__________________
I have formally 'resigned' (tactical withdraw) from the Space-Talk boards; mine were many questions, ideas, but no real answers. Thanks. 04/10/04.

Disclaimer: Please note the ideas expressed here by me are cutting edge theory, very speculative in nature, and not physics as it is being currently taught. Caveat lector.

08/23/03 00:54
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tarul


Registered: Sep 03
Posts: 1
Wink speed of ligt

could you possibly use a giant bose-einstein condensate producing thingy like a gun, make it so you are already moving at the speed of light when you exit??? do you under stand

09/17/03 02:22
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Rick Main


Registered: Sep 03
Posts: 22
aether is the key to FTL

I'd just like to put in my two cents about aether and FTL drives. Mostly cause I've been toying with an idea I had not to long ago. First off aether does exist and is very tiny and very dense. secondly aether can be split. I beilieve evidence of this can be seen in Floyd sweets VTA and the Lenz gate. Well, that said aether has mass, when you split it it loses that mass into energy, such as the ZPE. Now in devices were aether is split to produce energy a weight loss is obsereved. Now this weight loss is not anti gravity, rather space's mass state is more like the temperature scale, there is an absolute zero and there is a relative zero(where water freezes), so there is an absolute zero for mass/aether density and a relative zero(vacuum). Now if aether is not only a propagating medium for gravity, but for EM as well, then a decrease in aether concentration will lower the permivity and permeability of spaceincreaseing the speed of light until unfunty at the absolute aether zero. This decrease in gravity and increase in light speed could be used as an FTL device. I'd type out my whole aether theory here, but I don't think everyone wants to take the time to read it, so if you want to learn more e-mail and I'll send you my theroy when I've finsihed typing it.

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What is mind? No matter. What is matter? never mind

09/30/03 04:17
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Iron Mountain Man


Registered: Dec 02
Posts: 317
Post Aether

Rick,
Have you ever studied data on Nikolas Tesla? The 'aether'
seems to figure in his work and technology. Wish we had
more ofit in the hands of the people.

09/30/03 05:02
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